Veronika, what an incredible post—thank you for addressing this topic in such a detailed and thoughtful way. I also have a draft on shame, but I paused writing it because of the mixed feelings that surfaced while working on it. Your post has been very helpful for me. I’m sorry to hear about your kindergarten experience at such a young age—shaming like that tends to stick with us and resurface in unpredictable ways.
In my case, I’ve experienced shame for as long as I can remember—a persistent feeling of inadequacy. For me, shame has always been tied to not belonging, feeling like an outsider, or being different. I began to understand this more deeply when I started forming meaningful connections. As Brené Brown says, “If we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame can’t survive.”
Thank you again for your dedication. Your work is not only valuable but also incredibly insightful and well-structured. I admire you, send you energy to keep writing and sharing your gift!
Thank you so much Katerina! Your feedback is incredibly encouraging and helpful to me too. I also found this topic challenging. Because these topics you and I write about go straight under the skin. Because they are directly related to our personal and ancestral trauma histories. I think shame is a big one for everybody, not just in the human Consciousness pervaded by Christianity. It's infused in other cultures just the same (looking at Asia ...)
In my case, I have experienced shame in a similar way as you did. A 'persistent feeling of inadequacy' is a good way of putting it... not belonging √, outsider √, being different √ ~ that was my world too. I still feel these things but without the shame or sense of inadequacy. I guess I have grown into being the 'strange creature' I've always been. The difference is that I have learned to appreciate myself as I am.
In order to do this I had to swim through the ocean of shame without drowning in it. I'm planning to write more about all these 'negative emotional states' in my Synchronosophy channel soon. Here on Symbiopædia I am preparing the ground. Exploring the words gives me a safe distance to gain a solid understanding without being swamped by those inner sea monsters. 😰 🐉 😅
Very valuable writing Veronica, thank you and many thanks everybody for all the comments.
Our society, the plurality of histories and cultural legacies usually requiring heavily modified behaviours has become increasingly located in ever larger mass environments that generate criminality and exploitive perversities, including traumatised personalities taking it out on others, and all the rest. A glance back to various histories over thousands of years gives us an idea of the range. The anthropologist and scholar the late David Graeber's great volume - and those terrific footnotes - ‘Debt, The First 5000 years’, is one such useful sketch. I can only dip in from time to time.
I have recently tentatively come up with a term 'ur-humanity', when trying to follow the gifted others, past and present trying for insight, even remedy. This in my view is an historical and societal search (see Graeber on understanding the present). We are lucky in my view as individuals if we find ourselves somewhere within a protected 'human family' heritage. The way we experience and ‘see others', the creatures, the web of relations and the relationship with a self-repairing core of our being seems important. For example, looking back, even in terms of our biology people have been expected often enough to manage with prescribed behaviours that if applied to say farm or zoo animals would result in breeding failures, mental health problems and sociopathic behaviour. My guess is that collectively we still do not know what 'we' are doing? Our schooling systems still too often can breed sociopathic behaviour.
It is possible that this expanded industrial civilisation has the lifespan and resources left to work out what works for creatures and our biological selves and the repair mechanisms of the mind and consciousness we are semi-autonomous parts of. Start with dance, song, musicality and story and poetry? Assume love and grace works? It would be something to save for the future.
Shame has a part. As a child I borrowed the air-rifle and first shot hit a sparrow on a chimney pot. That was it. It was not possible after that. I have had to kill animals at times and I value the needs of aboriginal communities, but there is a need for deep knowledge and a wide boundary, a context, to our attention?
Well on in adulthood I was shamed by a youngish child when I was making disparaging 'humorous' comment about an older relative. That was it.
We all blush, even blench, at recalled regrets, even relive trauma suffered from others or events, but it is possible to pilgrimage the 'Vale of Forgetting' leaving baggage not needed on the pilgrimage.
I think the experiences you mention are examples of 'good shame', the kind that maintains certain natural moral boundaries to protect survival.
I also believe that teachers and educators should be among the highest trained, valued (and paid) people in any society. (they should also be carefully screened for suitability for the job) After all, the healthy social behaviour of future generations depends on them. Of course, in a corrupt society this is not going to happen. Moreover, socio- and other -paths can also be bred in private settings...
Regret and remorse, guilt and debt, apology, redemption and absolution... so many words still to contemplate and write about...
Thank you so much for reading and commenting. and for reminding me of David Graeber.
Ur-humanity (Urmenschheit) of course in German refers to 'prehistoric man'. I assume that's not what you mean here.
I consider myself (us) fortunate to have the opportunity to take part in this communal pondering, to think about my (our) place in the collective web of beings, and how to make a constructive contribution according to our gifts and talents. If we believe in an expanding universe (which appeals to my mind) it would make sense that each of us somehow contributes to this evolving cosmic mind.
I assume our emotional experiences (including shame, relived trauma, suffering etc) our baggage and our losing it, all make a contribution somehow.
Thank you for being here and your valuable input into this conversation/ contemplation.
Thanks Veronika. I had forgotten the German; I think I was only semi-conscious when I borrowed the 'ur' concept. Perhaps I was also avoiding the English 'Man'. CS Lewis wrote a little book , 'The Abolition of Man', (1945) 'Man' was that ubiquitous being in for example 'Man's conquest of Nature'. He tried to introduce 'the Tao', 'the Way.
He also had a good go at some worthwhile targets, e.g. an unfortunate elementary school textbook of the day that would teach 'a boy' how to think about texts. Lewis is exacting, but careful not to be unfair about motives etc... but oh dearie me! Social behaviour ... and the assumptions about human behaviour found necessary in our schooling systems in my view could do with more rigorous attention.
There is a writer, JM Greer, in America who was still an Archdruid back then when I read his online thoughts on peak oil. In later years as discussion widened considerably he recommended a number of books which I am very glad to have read, including the CS Lewis above. As a child, a bewildered Asperger's from at that time an insecure home, Greer suffered a great deal of bullying at shool. I would hate to think that an inherent part of the human condition.
It would be good in an expanding universe to find and celebrate an innocence at the core.
I think that's exactly what we'll find. Innocence at the core. That's my experience anyway, as my inner universe is expanding. And since every individual universe is a holomorphic fractal of the whole (as it is in my understanding) I can't see why not. So let's celebrate every step of the way.
I've just updated myself on JM Greer ~ reading his piece on America's new 'orange Julius' on ecosophia.net ~ well, we all know what happened to Cæsar in the end. I didn't make it past that part... (actually I'm quite sick and tired of the 'great American stuff' that swamps us at the moment) But I'll check him out some other time.
I quite like the way 'mensch' is used in English. It seems like an upgraded human.
Did not intend a digression into current Greer. I am grateful to him for a lot upto circa 2016 but he went to places where I did not follow and I was not interested in, indeed disagreed in some. Sorry. I worry about textbooks and classroom socialisation.
Very much value the space and thought you make for my and other comments here, and I think I am reading the same page as you when it comes to innocence at the core.
Relatively new as species go, perhaps a couple of inter-glacials back, but the small fraction of that time which is the last 8,000 years in agrarian civilisations, seems experimental, and it has been very difficult to sustain much 'progressive' learning, though that seems necessary, even critical now in this very recent acceleration, (Graeber, et al). As human families we live with the same core and requirements and much is easily lost, every generation. 'Upgraded human' ... ponders.
I remember my first instance of public shaming, which also happened at school at a young age. I might write about it another time; it is somewhat strange that at age 67, I can still recall the event and the feelings of dread it engendered.
I often think about whether non-human animals have shame. Or is it an emotion or quality unique among humans. I think so.
I read somewhere--I do not remember where--that there is a difference between feelings of shame and feelings of guilt. Guilt emanates from the individual conscience; shame always comes from an external source, like the nun who shamed you.
Great questions, Perry! That feelings of dread stay with us all through life, being injected at an early age, is both strange and unsettlingly 'normal'.
I was going to agree with you that the 'emotion of shame' is uniquely human... but then I'm thinking of some stray cats and dogs I've met since we moved to Portugal, and I'm not so sure anymore. Some of them also behave as if they've had some everlasting bad feeling injected at an early age.
I would differentiate too between shame and guilt. In German the word for 'guilt' is also used for 'debt', 'fault', 'blame'... The two overlap, because guilt can lead to shame.
I would also agree with your perception that shame comes from an external source (like public shaming), while guilt tends to come from an inner awareness of having done something wrong, perhaps more a deliberate breaking of a set of rules, rather than an innocent transgression of a rule or boundary.
Having said that, guilt is also used as an external label, when violation of a law (or breaking a rule) is confirmed. In this case, guilt comes after the act of transgression as an external judgement.
Good point about guilt associated with law-breaking, an external source of judgement. I have to give further consideration about cats and dogs and feelings of shame or guilt. Or is it that they have been terribly abused, whether physically or emotionally?
Another thought, however, is that both have been domesticated, by humans, and the shame (again) comes from humans, who have transplanted these emotions on to canines and felines.
Again, I found this article enlightening. Thanks, Veronika.
Yes, that's my conclusion too about those cats and dogs who seem to 'have lost their innocence' due to earlier abuse. Of course, these emotions have been transferred by interaction with humans.
But isn't that the same with human to human interactions? People who have been traumatised in early life carry these emotional wounds, which are difficult to heal.
Animals seem to do the same (in my mind at least). I'm no expert in this field, but every so often we can read stories about elephants (or other wild animals) who remember a person who treated them (good or bad) and responded accordingly.
Some years ago, my daughter was working in India and witnessed an interaction between a man and a wasps nest. The man hit the wall behind which the nest was located, and after a short time a wasp emerged, located the person within a crowded room, and stung him.
Such stories make me think that emotional memory and reactive behaviour are not exclusively human. Animals also have emotional attachments to humans, and to each other, both in domesticated settings and in the wild.
Oh, yes, Veronika, I believe that animals do have emotional attachments. The story of the wasp is not surprising. I can see it in my avian companion, Arya the Cockatiel. There are also many stories of crows who remember human faces.
Indeed, I think our domesticated animals somehow reflect our own states. "Pets become like their owners", which, with an ageing whinging cat, gives pause for thought :)
I also remember a 'public shaming' in class at boardung school - maybe aged about 10. And yes, at 68, I remember it well too. I just did not 'think' in the same way as we were being trained to think, and therefore my answers were considered 'stupid', or just plain wrong (in relation to the taught paradigm, they were 'wrong' of course). Shame on the teacher in this case.
Indeed. Unfortunately, our emotional experience adopts the 'might-is-right' rule until we are old enough (a life time later) to find our inner balance.
Shame - a word with deep impact, requiring a lot of digging to bring to light. I'm glad the post ended with the distinction of shame in a bad sense / good sense.
I thought of the current ongoing situation in Gaza - Shame in a good sense tells me a line has been well and truly crossed both in terms of "hitting a boundary", and "barriers of decency". The silence by Western leaders on the subject speaks of shame in a bad sense - there is a "hierarchical order" to be protected which requires 'genocide' being equated with 'the right to defend oneself / one's borders'. It appears there is no 'disgrace' or 'dishonour' in entertaining dictators any more.
The anthropocentric mind requires the moral bar to be continually lowered. The symbiocentric mind requires the moral/cultural bar to be continually raised. But where will this come from? Religions hardly have an encouraging track-record in this respect (as Alan Watts's quote, and your childhood experience, show).
I think it will ultimately come from individuals genuinely living their truth while respecting the right of all beings to do the same. I like to believe that nature has its own ethics and laws, which are naturally 'moral' and don't require shaming and blaming to keep people on track.
Besides, I think the moral bars have always been pretty low for certain people who believe they have a divine right to rule over others and the whole world. The high moral bars of religions were invented for the 'little people' so the shameless bullies at the top have an easier time being omnipotent rulers.
Fortunately it never works in the long run, as history has shown many times over.
I make a distinction between guilt and shame, in that guilt comes from an internal source, such as one's conscience. Shame emanates from an external source. Now, the situation in Gaza is noteworthy. The political and military leaders of Israel are not moved by public opprobrium, chiefly because their consciences have been seared. They feel no guilt.
Yes. They feel no guilt because they are acting according to their own moral laws an set of rules.
I am currently reading a book 'How to be Animal' by Melanie Challenger, where the author touches on this topic of morality. In the first third she keeps mentioning that humans feel superior to animals because of their morality. I have difficulties getting my head around that and keep thinking: What human morality, if any, do we actually see in Gaza? What animal would act with such high degrees of violation or absence of morality?
Later in the book she gets into how humans of all racial and ethnic backgrounds view other people from a different background as 'lesser humans', which may explain how genocides like Gaza can happen.
I agree; and I have written about this very idea numerous times. I do not understand or agree with the rational that homo sapiens are the superior species. The record of human history negates this very idea, I would argue.
This reminds me of a question my friends wrestled with in our youth, "What's the difference between shame and guilt?" Perhaps if you had gotten away with eating the banana, you would have felt guilty, but instead you were shamed because you did something "wrong". But Brene didn't feel guilty after her dance competition, more likely embarrassed until her parents reaction.
I'm glad you brought up the "good" side of shame because I feel like there are no boundaries on social media as long as you go viral and make $$$. Thanks Veronika for being here. xo
"What's the difference between shame and guilt?" Great question.
Something to think about for another wordcast... 🤫
Your observations are spot on. This goes to show that external actions + events and internal experience are not necessarily causally related. External shaming may trigger anger or fear or any other emotional turmoil. Disappointment (of parents in BB's case) can stir up shame mixed with other stuff.
And yes, 'good shame' is certainly lacking in large stretches of social media (rife with unprocessed trauma, self-righteousness, and breaking all moral and ethical boundaries). I try to avoid those zones. That's why my main 'social' writing activity is on substack. A sanctuary in the bewildering on-line world, as far as I'm concerned.
I’ve been travelling for a few days, so I’m slow to respond. Thank you so much for leaning into shame. Vituperating, Ignominy, Mortification- these are new words for me. I always leave here with new words. I always leave here with understanding. I always leave here better than before I came here. Thank you so much for helping us lean into shame. Even the word itself gives a cold shiver. It’s a weight that we unnecessarily carry. Thank you so much for creating meaning. Empathy and understanding are shame killers! 🙏❤️
So interesting what you are saying here. Shame definitely is a difficult one to write about. I think I was shivering all the way through, even when hitting the 'publish' button 😰
"Empathy and understanding are shame killers!" ~ I never thought about it that way... is this a good or a bad thing? Please tell me more.
What I didn't go into in this wordcast was the time I plunged into an abyssal zone in the ocean of shame when living in an abusive relationship (this will pop up some time next year on my other substack Synchronosophy)
Your comment made me think that SHAME is a KILLER! It makes me think of the people who rather die than getting out of a shameful situation... And it's in our language too: "dying of shame."
So much to think about... thank you so for being here 💙 🙏
Thanks! On empathy, I was leaning into that Brene Brown quote “ If we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame can't survive.” So empathy and understanding ultimately kill shame. They prevent it from even occurring?
We are born as questions. Culture is a loose web of answers that we get conditioned, or trained into. School tends to be the greatest subjugator. School may also be the greatest shamer. Reputation is the new currency? Sometimes the education we are receiving now is actually the inverse of education. Maybe we all lost the vocation of being?
Somehow there seems to be a shame industry, and meaning is hiding. Thanks for uncovering it in the spaces between the words.
Yes, thank you for the explanation. I totally agree with that, and have seen it at work with young children.
Reputation a new currency? ~ what a great question.
A shame industry ~ excellent observation.
I believe we are already born with the unresolved shame (guilt, fear, grief, resentment, you name it) of our ancestors. According to the Christian doctrine we are all born as 'sinners' before we've even had a chance to get anything wrong.
Is the act of being born something to be ashamed about? Is that the question we are born as, or with, or into?
"Is the act of being born something to be ashamed about? Is that the question we are born as, or with, or into? "
The Abrahamic religions all carry the notion that having to be born into material reality in the first place is somewhat shameful because it is a direct 'outcome' of failure (in the Garden of Eden) - and as you point out, shame (of being naked) was the first negative experience, and directly resulted in punishment - being thrown out of paradise , and having thereafter to live a life of sweat and pain. We are therefore very 'brittle' around the subject and experience of shame because it cuts directly to the deepest part of our fundamental failure - the agonising moment when we 'did it'.
The story that follows then is all about 'redemption', putting right a wrong. And the fact that we needed a rescuer (Jesus) only serves to hammer home how badly we failed and how hopeless/unempowered/useless we are because we couldn't put right by our own initiative the 'wrong' we did. This also consolidates the victim-perpetrator-rescuer (Humans-Satan-Jesus) paradigm. Of course, with such a deeply embedded 'sin', one can argue we never had a chance to redeem ourselves anyway, and hence the need for an outside 'rescuer', clothed in the language of love, all of which also piqued our pride as inadequate beings.
Whichever way you look at it, if God is immutable, then the vicious, partisan, jealous and vengeful God of the Old Testament neatly transferring in to 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' has a lot of explaining to do.
Which throws us back to subjective experience as all we can trust - as it forms the basis of the truth of our lives on this planet, whatever the bigger story it may be wrapped in. Long Live Synchronosphy! 😊 🙏 💜
I like the word 'brittle' here in relation to shame. I think the brittleness comes from the lack of understanding and coherence. In the case of public shaming as a child we don't have any solid ground to stand on. We are fragile and confused, trying to get a grasp on life and how the world works, when some adult comes along and goes WHAM! whacking us over the head with some 'Holy Scripture' which we can't yet read, never mind understand or make sense of.
Following such bizarre and traumatising assaults, the main self-knowledge we are left with is the conviction that 'there must be something wrong with me' and the discomfort of being seen...
We are born as questions. Beings. Culture tries to provide a loose web of answers. We live into the questions in a life long quest to un-know and un-name those answers to reveal something underneath, inside, between or above it all.
Another deeply thought provoking piece Veronika. Shame in the Symbiocene as a healthy, relational stake is an entirely new way of seeing it. And your earlier reflection that it “may be connected with, or dependent on not being known, or not being seen” further supports this relational asset. Goodness I love how you make me think!
Oh, thank you so much for sharing! This looks like such a FUN project...!!
And I love the Marginalian library of Maria Popova's ponderings. Always a worthwhile visit.
It's been my intention from the beginning of this Symbiopædia project to bring the words on my pages to life by giving my voice to words so they can tell their own stories.
Hi Veronika, shame, the governing tool of manipulation and once realised, yes, we can use the feeling to let us know if we begin to deviate into the conditioned ways in which our institutions taught us to loathe self and others - private to public. Thank you🙏
The shame of self-loathing due to fabricated sinfulness. How sticky, entangled and resilient this old web of lies is, and that it's especially used as an effective tool to keep women in submissive and subservient roles all over the world just makes me want to cry (tears of indignation and outrage, not shame)
Veronika, what an incredible post—thank you for addressing this topic in such a detailed and thoughtful way. I also have a draft on shame, but I paused writing it because of the mixed feelings that surfaced while working on it. Your post has been very helpful for me. I’m sorry to hear about your kindergarten experience at such a young age—shaming like that tends to stick with us and resurface in unpredictable ways.
In my case, I’ve experienced shame for as long as I can remember—a persistent feeling of inadequacy. For me, shame has always been tied to not belonging, feeling like an outsider, or being different. I began to understand this more deeply when I started forming meaningful connections. As Brené Brown says, “If we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame can’t survive.”
Thank you again for your dedication. Your work is not only valuable but also incredibly insightful and well-structured. I admire you, send you energy to keep writing and sharing your gift!
Thank you so much Katerina! Your feedback is incredibly encouraging and helpful to me too. I also found this topic challenging. Because these topics you and I write about go straight under the skin. Because they are directly related to our personal and ancestral trauma histories. I think shame is a big one for everybody, not just in the human Consciousness pervaded by Christianity. It's infused in other cultures just the same (looking at Asia ...)
In my case, I have experienced shame in a similar way as you did. A 'persistent feeling of inadequacy' is a good way of putting it... not belonging √, outsider √, being different √ ~ that was my world too. I still feel these things but without the shame or sense of inadequacy. I guess I have grown into being the 'strange creature' I've always been. The difference is that I have learned to appreciate myself as I am.
In order to do this I had to swim through the ocean of shame without drowning in it. I'm planning to write more about all these 'negative emotional states' in my Synchronosophy channel soon. Here on Symbiopædia I am preparing the ground. Exploring the words gives me a safe distance to gain a solid understanding without being swamped by those inner sea monsters. 😰 🐉 😅
Very valuable writing Veronica, thank you and many thanks everybody for all the comments.
Our society, the plurality of histories and cultural legacies usually requiring heavily modified behaviours has become increasingly located in ever larger mass environments that generate criminality and exploitive perversities, including traumatised personalities taking it out on others, and all the rest. A glance back to various histories over thousands of years gives us an idea of the range. The anthropologist and scholar the late David Graeber's great volume - and those terrific footnotes - ‘Debt, The First 5000 years’, is one such useful sketch. I can only dip in from time to time.
I have recently tentatively come up with a term 'ur-humanity', when trying to follow the gifted others, past and present trying for insight, even remedy. This in my view is an historical and societal search (see Graeber on understanding the present). We are lucky in my view as individuals if we find ourselves somewhere within a protected 'human family' heritage. The way we experience and ‘see others', the creatures, the web of relations and the relationship with a self-repairing core of our being seems important. For example, looking back, even in terms of our biology people have been expected often enough to manage with prescribed behaviours that if applied to say farm or zoo animals would result in breeding failures, mental health problems and sociopathic behaviour. My guess is that collectively we still do not know what 'we' are doing? Our schooling systems still too often can breed sociopathic behaviour.
It is possible that this expanded industrial civilisation has the lifespan and resources left to work out what works for creatures and our biological selves and the repair mechanisms of the mind and consciousness we are semi-autonomous parts of. Start with dance, song, musicality and story and poetry? Assume love and grace works? It would be something to save for the future.
Shame has a part. As a child I borrowed the air-rifle and first shot hit a sparrow on a chimney pot. That was it. It was not possible after that. I have had to kill animals at times and I value the needs of aboriginal communities, but there is a need for deep knowledge and a wide boundary, a context, to our attention?
Well on in adulthood I was shamed by a youngish child when I was making disparaging 'humorous' comment about an older relative. That was it.
We all blush, even blench, at recalled regrets, even relive trauma suffered from others or events, but it is possible to pilgrimage the 'Vale of Forgetting' leaving baggage not needed on the pilgrimage.
Nods head! Amen. 😊👍
I think the experiences you mention are examples of 'good shame', the kind that maintains certain natural moral boundaries to protect survival.
I also believe that teachers and educators should be among the highest trained, valued (and paid) people in any society. (they should also be carefully screened for suitability for the job) After all, the healthy social behaviour of future generations depends on them. Of course, in a corrupt society this is not going to happen. Moreover, socio- and other -paths can also be bred in private settings...
Regret and remorse, guilt and debt, apology, redemption and absolution... so many words still to contemplate and write about...
Thank you so much for reading and commenting. and for reminding me of David Graeber.
Ur-humanity (Urmenschheit) of course in German refers to 'prehistoric man'. I assume that's not what you mean here.
I consider myself (us) fortunate to have the opportunity to take part in this communal pondering, to think about my (our) place in the collective web of beings, and how to make a constructive contribution according to our gifts and talents. If we believe in an expanding universe (which appeals to my mind) it would make sense that each of us somehow contributes to this evolving cosmic mind.
I assume our emotional experiences (including shame, relived trauma, suffering etc) our baggage and our losing it, all make a contribution somehow.
Thank you for being here and your valuable input into this conversation/ contemplation.
Thanks Veronika. I had forgotten the German; I think I was only semi-conscious when I borrowed the 'ur' concept. Perhaps I was also avoiding the English 'Man'. CS Lewis wrote a little book , 'The Abolition of Man', (1945) 'Man' was that ubiquitous being in for example 'Man's conquest of Nature'. He tried to introduce 'the Tao', 'the Way.
He also had a good go at some worthwhile targets, e.g. an unfortunate elementary school textbook of the day that would teach 'a boy' how to think about texts. Lewis is exacting, but careful not to be unfair about motives etc... but oh dearie me! Social behaviour ... and the assumptions about human behaviour found necessary in our schooling systems in my view could do with more rigorous attention.
There is a writer, JM Greer, in America who was still an Archdruid back then when I read his online thoughts on peak oil. In later years as discussion widened considerably he recommended a number of books which I am very glad to have read, including the CS Lewis above. As a child, a bewildered Asperger's from at that time an insecure home, Greer suffered a great deal of bullying at shool. I would hate to think that an inherent part of the human condition.
It would be good in an expanding universe to find and celebrate an innocence at the core.
I think that's exactly what we'll find. Innocence at the core. That's my experience anyway, as my inner universe is expanding. And since every individual universe is a holomorphic fractal of the whole (as it is in my understanding) I can't see why not. So let's celebrate every step of the way.
I've just updated myself on JM Greer ~ reading his piece on America's new 'orange Julius' on ecosophia.net ~ well, we all know what happened to Cæsar in the end. I didn't make it past that part... (actually I'm quite sick and tired of the 'great American stuff' that swamps us at the moment) But I'll check him out some other time.
I quite like the way 'mensch' is used in English. It seems like an upgraded human.
Did not intend a digression into current Greer. I am grateful to him for a lot upto circa 2016 but he went to places where I did not follow and I was not interested in, indeed disagreed in some. Sorry. I worry about textbooks and classroom socialisation.
Very much value the space and thought you make for my and other comments here, and I think I am reading the same page as you when it comes to innocence at the core.
Relatively new as species go, perhaps a couple of inter-glacials back, but the small fraction of that time which is the last 8,000 years in agrarian civilisations, seems experimental, and it has been very difficult to sustain much 'progressive' learning, though that seems necessary, even critical now in this very recent acceleration, (Graeber, et al). As human families we live with the same core and requirements and much is easily lost, every generation. 'Upgraded human' ... ponders.
Apologies Veronika for habitually spelling your name wrongly!
no worries, I'm used to it
I remember my first instance of public shaming, which also happened at school at a young age. I might write about it another time; it is somewhat strange that at age 67, I can still recall the event and the feelings of dread it engendered.
I often think about whether non-human animals have shame. Or is it an emotion or quality unique among humans. I think so.
I read somewhere--I do not remember where--that there is a difference between feelings of shame and feelings of guilt. Guilt emanates from the individual conscience; shame always comes from an external source, like the nun who shamed you.
Great questions, Perry! That feelings of dread stay with us all through life, being injected at an early age, is both strange and unsettlingly 'normal'.
I was going to agree with you that the 'emotion of shame' is uniquely human... but then I'm thinking of some stray cats and dogs I've met since we moved to Portugal, and I'm not so sure anymore. Some of them also behave as if they've had some everlasting bad feeling injected at an early age.
I would differentiate too between shame and guilt. In German the word for 'guilt' is also used for 'debt', 'fault', 'blame'... The two overlap, because guilt can lead to shame.
I would also agree with your perception that shame comes from an external source (like public shaming), while guilt tends to come from an inner awareness of having done something wrong, perhaps more a deliberate breaking of a set of rules, rather than an innocent transgression of a rule or boundary.
Having said that, guilt is also used as an external label, when violation of a law (or breaking a rule) is confirmed. In this case, guilt comes after the act of transgression as an external judgement.
Good point about guilt associated with law-breaking, an external source of judgement. I have to give further consideration about cats and dogs and feelings of shame or guilt. Or is it that they have been terribly abused, whether physically or emotionally?
Another thought, however, is that both have been domesticated, by humans, and the shame (again) comes from humans, who have transplanted these emotions on to canines and felines.
Again, I found this article enlightening. Thanks, Veronika.
Yes, that's my conclusion too about those cats and dogs who seem to 'have lost their innocence' due to earlier abuse. Of course, these emotions have been transferred by interaction with humans.
But isn't that the same with human to human interactions? People who have been traumatised in early life carry these emotional wounds, which are difficult to heal.
Animals seem to do the same (in my mind at least). I'm no expert in this field, but every so often we can read stories about elephants (or other wild animals) who remember a person who treated them (good or bad) and responded accordingly.
Some years ago, my daughter was working in India and witnessed an interaction between a man and a wasps nest. The man hit the wall behind which the nest was located, and after a short time a wasp emerged, located the person within a crowded room, and stung him.
Such stories make me think that emotional memory and reactive behaviour are not exclusively human. Animals also have emotional attachments to humans, and to each other, both in domesticated settings and in the wild.
Oh, yes, Veronika, I believe that animals do have emotional attachments. The story of the wasp is not surprising. I can see it in my avian companion, Arya the Cockatiel. There are also many stories of crows who remember human faces.
I'm sure you do. Isn't this far more fascinating than insisting on 'human superiority'?!
Yes, a more broader and richer life.🦜🐦🕊
Indeed, I think our domesticated animals somehow reflect our own states. "Pets become like their owners", which, with an ageing whinging cat, gives pause for thought :)
Love that word, whinging, Joshua. So much better than complaining or whining. It sounds like a British word; I will adopt it here in Canada.
I also remember a 'public shaming' in class at boardung school - maybe aged about 10. And yes, at 68, I remember it well too. I just did not 'think' in the same way as we were being trained to think, and therefore my answers were considered 'stupid', or just plain wrong (in relation to the taught paradigm, they were 'wrong' of course). Shame on the teacher in this case.
Indeed. Unfortunately, our emotional experience adopts the 'might-is-right' rule until we are old enough (a life time later) to find our inner balance.
Shame - a word with deep impact, requiring a lot of digging to bring to light. I'm glad the post ended with the distinction of shame in a bad sense / good sense.
I thought of the current ongoing situation in Gaza - Shame in a good sense tells me a line has been well and truly crossed both in terms of "hitting a boundary", and "barriers of decency". The silence by Western leaders on the subject speaks of shame in a bad sense - there is a "hierarchical order" to be protected which requires 'genocide' being equated with 'the right to defend oneself / one's borders'. It appears there is no 'disgrace' or 'dishonour' in entertaining dictators any more.
The anthropocentric mind requires the moral bar to be continually lowered. The symbiocentric mind requires the moral/cultural bar to be continually raised. But where will this come from? Religions hardly have an encouraging track-record in this respect (as Alan Watts's quote, and your childhood experience, show).
good question.
I think it will ultimately come from individuals genuinely living their truth while respecting the right of all beings to do the same. I like to believe that nature has its own ethics and laws, which are naturally 'moral' and don't require shaming and blaming to keep people on track.
Besides, I think the moral bars have always been pretty low for certain people who believe they have a divine right to rule over others and the whole world. The high moral bars of religions were invented for the 'little people' so the shameless bullies at the top have an easier time being omnipotent rulers.
Fortunately it never works in the long run, as history has shown many times over.
I make a distinction between guilt and shame, in that guilt comes from an internal source, such as one's conscience. Shame emanates from an external source. Now, the situation in Gaza is noteworthy. The political and military leaders of Israel are not moved by public opprobrium, chiefly because their consciences have been seared. They feel no guilt.
Yes. They feel no guilt because they are acting according to their own moral laws an set of rules.
I am currently reading a book 'How to be Animal' by Melanie Challenger, where the author touches on this topic of morality. In the first third she keeps mentioning that humans feel superior to animals because of their morality. I have difficulties getting my head around that and keep thinking: What human morality, if any, do we actually see in Gaza? What animal would act with such high degrees of violation or absence of morality?
Later in the book she gets into how humans of all racial and ethnic backgrounds view other people from a different background as 'lesser humans', which may explain how genocides like Gaza can happen.
I agree; and I have written about this very idea numerous times. I do not understand or agree with the rational that homo sapiens are the superior species. The record of human history negates this very idea, I would argue.
This reminds me of a question my friends wrestled with in our youth, "What's the difference between shame and guilt?" Perhaps if you had gotten away with eating the banana, you would have felt guilty, but instead you were shamed because you did something "wrong". But Brene didn't feel guilty after her dance competition, more likely embarrassed until her parents reaction.
I'm glad you brought up the "good" side of shame because I feel like there are no boundaries on social media as long as you go viral and make $$$. Thanks Veronika for being here. xo
"What's the difference between shame and guilt?" Great question.
Something to think about for another wordcast... 🤫
Your observations are spot on. This goes to show that external actions + events and internal experience are not necessarily causally related. External shaming may trigger anger or fear or any other emotional turmoil. Disappointment (of parents in BB's case) can stir up shame mixed with other stuff.
And yes, 'good shame' is certainly lacking in large stretches of social media (rife with unprocessed trauma, self-righteousness, and breaking all moral and ethical boundaries). I try to avoid those zones. That's why my main 'social' writing activity is on substack. A sanctuary in the bewildering on-line world, as far as I'm concerned.
Always grateful for your presence, Lani 💙 🙏
I’ve been travelling for a few days, so I’m slow to respond. Thank you so much for leaning into shame. Vituperating, Ignominy, Mortification- these are new words for me. I always leave here with new words. I always leave here with understanding. I always leave here better than before I came here. Thank you so much for helping us lean into shame. Even the word itself gives a cold shiver. It’s a weight that we unnecessarily carry. Thank you so much for creating meaning. Empathy and understanding are shame killers! 🙏❤️
Welcome back!
So interesting what you are saying here. Shame definitely is a difficult one to write about. I think I was shivering all the way through, even when hitting the 'publish' button 😰
"Empathy and understanding are shame killers!" ~ I never thought about it that way... is this a good or a bad thing? Please tell me more.
What I didn't go into in this wordcast was the time I plunged into an abyssal zone in the ocean of shame when living in an abusive relationship (this will pop up some time next year on my other substack Synchronosophy)
Your comment made me think that SHAME is a KILLER! It makes me think of the people who rather die than getting out of a shameful situation... And it's in our language too: "dying of shame."
So much to think about... thank you so for being here 💙 🙏
Thanks! On empathy, I was leaning into that Brene Brown quote “ If we can share our story with someone who responds with empathy and understanding, shame can't survive.” So empathy and understanding ultimately kill shame. They prevent it from even occurring?
We are born as questions. Culture is a loose web of answers that we get conditioned, or trained into. School tends to be the greatest subjugator. School may also be the greatest shamer. Reputation is the new currency? Sometimes the education we are receiving now is actually the inverse of education. Maybe we all lost the vocation of being?
Somehow there seems to be a shame industry, and meaning is hiding. Thanks for uncovering it in the spaces between the words.
Yes, thank you for the explanation. I totally agree with that, and have seen it at work with young children.
Reputation a new currency? ~ what a great question.
A shame industry ~ excellent observation.
I believe we are already born with the unresolved shame (guilt, fear, grief, resentment, you name it) of our ancestors. According to the Christian doctrine we are all born as 'sinners' before we've even had a chance to get anything wrong.
Is the act of being born something to be ashamed about? Is that the question we are born as, or with, or into?
"Is the act of being born something to be ashamed about? Is that the question we are born as, or with, or into? "
The Abrahamic religions all carry the notion that having to be born into material reality in the first place is somewhat shameful because it is a direct 'outcome' of failure (in the Garden of Eden) - and as you point out, shame (of being naked) was the first negative experience, and directly resulted in punishment - being thrown out of paradise , and having thereafter to live a life of sweat and pain. We are therefore very 'brittle' around the subject and experience of shame because it cuts directly to the deepest part of our fundamental failure - the agonising moment when we 'did it'.
The story that follows then is all about 'redemption', putting right a wrong. And the fact that we needed a rescuer (Jesus) only serves to hammer home how badly we failed and how hopeless/unempowered/useless we are because we couldn't put right by our own initiative the 'wrong' we did. This also consolidates the victim-perpetrator-rescuer (Humans-Satan-Jesus) paradigm. Of course, with such a deeply embedded 'sin', one can argue we never had a chance to redeem ourselves anyway, and hence the need for an outside 'rescuer', clothed in the language of love, all of which also piqued our pride as inadequate beings.
Whichever way you look at it, if God is immutable, then the vicious, partisan, jealous and vengeful God of the Old Testament neatly transferring in to 'gentle Jesus meek and mild' has a lot of explaining to do.
Which throws us back to subjective experience as all we can trust - as it forms the basis of the truth of our lives on this planet, whatever the bigger story it may be wrapped in. Long Live Synchronosphy! 😊 🙏 💜
Oh wow! Thank you for this glorious summary 😅
I like the word 'brittle' here in relation to shame. I think the brittleness comes from the lack of understanding and coherence. In the case of public shaming as a child we don't have any solid ground to stand on. We are fragile and confused, trying to get a grasp on life and how the world works, when some adult comes along and goes WHAM! whacking us over the head with some 'Holy Scripture' which we can't yet read, never mind understand or make sense of.
Following such bizarre and traumatising assaults, the main self-knowledge we are left with is the conviction that 'there must be something wrong with me' and the discomfort of being seen...
We are born as questions. Beings. Culture tries to provide a loose web of answers. We live into the questions in a life long quest to un-know and un-name those answers to reveal something underneath, inside, between or above it all.
Another deeply thought provoking piece Veronika. Shame in the Symbiocene as a healthy, relational stake is an entirely new way of seeing it. And your earlier reflection that it “may be connected with, or dependent on not being known, or not being seen” further supports this relational asset. Goodness I love how you make me think!
Your feedback warms my heart and encourages me to keep writing 💙 🙏
It’s a joy to be immersed in your writing every week Veronika.
I read this wonderful review this morning and thought of you: https://www.themarginalian.org/2024/11/15/the-dictionary-story/
Oh, thank you so much for sharing! This looks like such a FUN project...!!
And I love the Marginalian library of Maria Popova's ponderings. Always a worthwhile visit.
It's been my intention from the beginning of this Symbiopædia project to bring the words on my pages to life by giving my voice to words so they can tell their own stories.
Hi Veronika, shame, the governing tool of manipulation and once realised, yes, we can use the feeling to let us know if we begin to deviate into the conditioned ways in which our institutions taught us to loathe self and others - private to public. Thank you🙏
The shame of self-loathing due to fabricated sinfulness. How sticky, entangled and resilient this old web of lies is, and that it's especially used as an effective tool to keep women in submissive and subservient roles all over the world just makes me want to cry (tears of indignation and outrage, not shame)
Yes, that ‘sin’ … to be a woman. I am raging with you 🙏
Thank you for restacking, Geraldine 💙 🙏
Thank you Tim for restacking 💙 🙏